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Aschig
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 12:43 am: | 
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I have been reading more closely some of the possible ways to time travel. I know that there are many instances of it in Hindu mythology. Could folks who know details of any such stories post them here? I would like to see how they compare with current predictions of the possible methods.
Loosely used, time travel includes such things as suddenly appearing somewhere, like Narad was famous for doing.
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Yogibear
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 1:26 pm: |
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Aschiq: tu mhNatÜ Aahosa tXyaa baáyaaca gaÜYTI pÝraiNak kqaaMmaQao saapDitla pNa kuzlyaa AaQaaro tu verify krNaar² naahI mhNajao eKaVanao eKadI maaihtItlaI gaÜYT ilahayacaI AaiNa baaikcyaaMnaI %yaalaa proof daKva Asao mhNaayacao....
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Aschig
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 4:52 pm: |
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yogi :-)
I have no intentions of asking someone to prove something (for a change?) or disbelieving them. All I am thinking of is comparing the various currently thought of models of timetravel and the examples to see if the stories fit in a pattern.
(1) Were there always the same gods who would show this ability?
(2) Were the points of jumps a limited number like bharatvarsha, kailas, vaikunth etc.?
(3) Was the time involved comparable to minutes, or whole yugas?
Our rich mythology is full of symbolic and evry decorative usage of words which unfortunately every now and then gets misinterpreted in a literal sense. One interesting exercise may be to see if our gods actually correspond to some concepts rather than entities. Ican give a few examples which I am thinking of as I write here:
(1) Krushna showed Arjun the whole universe by opening his mouth.
It is consistent with the equations of relativity that when you travel at the velocity of light, time stops for you and it is possible for you to be everywhere at the same time (but partciles which are travelling at a lower velocity can never attain the velocity of light). Was that what happened?
(2) Narad appears somewhere. has he used a portal to transport himself?
(3) There are so many amar entities (e.g. hanuman). Is that because they are different massless partciles that travel at the velocity of light?
(Yet there are some interesting contradictions: hanuman took a finite non-zero time to get the medicenes for Laxman).
So, there.
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Yogibear
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 5:15 pm: |
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Aschiq: Just a thought.....
Say we have art of conversion from one 'form' to another 'form'. By 'form' I am referring to 5 elements: water, sky, fire, earth(may be rock....not sure), air. If the conversion is possible then the travel in that medium can be achieved at some extraordinary rates, isnt it!
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Shrini
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 5:47 pm: |
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doesn't chaos theory and constantly increasing entropy forbid time travel atleast in our Universe ?
YB, isn't the speed of light the limiting factor ? No matter which form you change into, you are always bounded by s.o.l.
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Yogibear
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 6:13 pm: |
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Shrini: Umm wont light become partial form of 'fire'!!! (just a thought)
s.o.l.? (kalalle nahi)
Referring to mythological text/era, manaacaa vaoga savaa-t jaast samaJalaa jaatÜÊ naahI ka²²²
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Shrini
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 6:42 pm: |
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s.o.l. = speed of light 
>>wont light become partial form of 'fire'!!!
and your point is ?
btw, as far as 'hard' sciences are concerned, mind doesn't exist... so from a physicist's approach, speed of mind has no meaning...
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Aschig
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 7:08 pm: |
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water = liquid = matter
earth = solid = matter
air = gas = matter
heat = energy == matter (through E=mc*c)
sky = space (not=) matter
BUT, presence of matter curves spacetime or in more cryptic terms, matter defines space. SO they are in fact interconvertible.
Only particles travelling slower than light can not travel faster than light. Equations of relativity do not forbid particles (the hypothetical tachyons) which always travle faster than light. They have not been found and most physicists believe that they do not exist, but nothing has been found that forbids their existence. So as per the theory of relativity, they travel backword in time.
Yogi, mind can go infinitely fast in the sense you can think of things. But you can not really see what is there. For example, the moment I think of the sun, I have its image in my mind. Light takes 500 seconds to get to the sun. But the image that I have, is just the collective impression of the sun just like when we "think" of "chair" there is no one particular chair we are thinking about.
If you have to liken it science, you could say that as per Heisenberg's uncertainty principle the location and momentum can not be pinpointed and the mind gets there instantly because in some sense it is everywhere or some such rather vague thing. But in essence its just an image we conjure up inside us.
Shrini, time travel is not forbidden. Its just that it is very intricate and extreme (like having to find peculiar blackholes or very fast rotating pulsars and being able to avoid exotic matter, or look for strings leftover from the bigbang etc.)
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Yogibear
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 8:21 pm: |
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Aschig: "is just the collective impression" <<< Not necessarily.....as per my knowledge/reading with yogic powers you can travel thru any forms in something called 'sauxma ' body, and if thats possible (which ofcourse it is) then we can actually be on earth but go for a walk on moon/any other part of universe, Isnt it!!! I am mentioning this cause sometime back I had read that with yogic powers ppl had travelled to planets like Saturn and the rings were mentioned in there writings long before it was actually scientifically discovered.
Another technology that came to mind was molecular transformation just the way shown in 'Startrek' where ppl can be transported on different places if the cordinates are available....
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Aschig
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 8:50 pm: |
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Yogi, thats the question I am raising here. What kind of model will allow such "experiences". Would you care to provide more details about one of the sukshma roop stories and we can try to see if we get a scientific model for it. If there are more than one stories, that will be even better.
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Shrini
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 8:59 pm: |
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Aschig, one necessary method to measure the passage of time is by tracing the permanent changes occurring in things around us. I specifically mentioned chaos theory because (independent of what relativity theoretically allows), chaos theory states that it is impossible to accurately gather precise values of variables at the initial state. Also, small erros at the begining result in huge miscalculations as the time progresses...
Therefore, we can not duplicate (or reverse) those changes because we can't precisely measure them in the first place. This is in complete contradiction with the idea of travelling back in time.
So also, what do we do about the overall entropy increase while going back in time ? how do we reduce it ?
Maybe going ahead in time is probable, but going back is impossible...
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Yogibear
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 9:05 pm: |
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Aschig: "more details about one of the sukshma roop stories" <<<
I have a book which in a ways tells how that is achieved.
Trying to explain and hoping it makes sense:
The base here is to understand and have sense of location. For example: say u have 2 rooms. U go in room X and watch it carefully with all possible things u can remember. Now come back to room Y. Sit on a chair and try and focus to remember all things u saw in other room. Try to view each and every corner of the room X in your mind by sitting in room Y.
This will sound as if whats new in it! since u already saw the room u know wats in it and with virtual reality in your mind u can always explore room anytime. Thats not the point here. This is base technique utilized to get the grip on the travel of 'sukshma roop'. The important part is when u r exploring the room X sitting in room Y, u will probably see something which was not there or which u missed when u were physically present in the room.
Story: 2 french visitors were in great Himalayas doing some expedition. On their way they met a 'saadhu'. A typical saadhu who only wear a peice of cloth to cover his genitals and thats about it. The visitors were amazed, howcome he does not feel the cold temp. On asking him the reason, Saadhu narated that he gets his energy from yogic powers. One of the visitor asked him the strength of yogic power. Saadhu replied back saying why dont he write a 2 liner letter to his wife in France and with his yogic powers saadhu will deliver the letter. Visitor did write a letter and kept it in the saadhu's kamandalu. Saadhu sat on the ground and closed his eyes and within seconds/minutes (dunno for sure) he asked the visiotr to check the kamandalu. Visitor took out the same letter and on the back side he found his wife reply "You mesg was delivered by a person who looks like saadhu at this time". Well naturally visitor was amazed.....
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Aschig
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 9:54 pm: |
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Shrini, yo do not reverse those processes. You just get to the point of earlier time i.e. just like when you go from point A in space to point B knowing that all space exists simultaneously, so does all time exists at once (whatever that means). A closed timelike loop (CTL) allows you to get to another point in time and space and back.
So in some sense the increase in entropy you see is the value of entropy at the slice of the universe you currently experience. (In that model everything is then predetermined :-( A way out is saying you go back in another branch of the many worlds. In general, you are right in that going forward in time seems easier)
Yogi, I think it will be rather trying for me to try to think of models of recent exhibitions of yogic powers. I would like to stick to some of the more widespread mythological stories. Sorry if that disappoints you.
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Shrini
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| | Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 10:57 pm: |
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Aschig, a consequence of going back in time is reversing these changes. But that is not possible; therefore it is reasonable to argue that going back in time is impossible too. This is what I meant when I specifically mentioned chaos theory.
I've done some reading on time travel because it's quite intriguing. Almost everybody seems to agree that going back is not possible (forget the sci-fi movies...). I'm also aware of granddad-grandson paradox. Infact the solution to that is the central idea of Crichton's 'timeline'. But that's not the same as going back in your *own* Universe.
The fundamental question is, can we define time as an independent entity ? can we define it the way we define speed or work or power or space ? Or do we just understand it intuitively ?
Unless we *formally* understand it, how can we even think of manipulating it ?
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Aschig
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| | Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 12:13 am: |
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shrini, How about I write on a separate BB about my understanding of timetravel and we discuss this there? On this BB we can simply assume that it can be done (perhaps only towards the future as you suggest) and let people post stories (though I do not see them doing that).
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Beti
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| | Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 8:06 am: |
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ashish all the deities.. greater and lesser including yax kinnar and some raaxas eg. marich a.k.a. suwarNmrug were supposed to have this power.... tyaamuLe tyaabaddal specific stories kaahee saangataa yeteelase waaTenaa.. could u elaborate?
and as of hanumaan taking long time.. he couldnt recognise 'the' diwyauShadhi (sa.njeewanee buTee). he got confused since all plants have medicinal uses. besides this there are some offshoots of that story .. xplaining why he got late.. which I dont remember.. ..
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Aschig
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| | Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 2:27 pm: |
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Hmmm
I guess our mythological literature is indeed too vast and complex that I may have to take up a specific theme and try theories on it (e.g. just instances in mahabhrata or ramayana or some particular puranas). The downside of the first two is that they could in fact be historical stories that have been hugely decorated by story tellers and hence not really that ancient.
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hi aschig,
did u actually start a BB discussing time travel? I would definitely like to read the stuff...ignorant as i am, i can only look forward to reading some good stuff from you people
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Manjiri_g
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| | Monday, February 21, 2005 - 6:42 pm: |
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I know, nobody has posted on this topic for a long time, but some of my comments are : There are 4 Yuga, Sat, Treta, Dwapar and Kali. and these Yugas come one after the other and are linked back to back. Now, we, humans keep taking birth in different Yugas. In Kali Yuga, intellectual level of humans and values are at a very low level. Whereas in SatYuga, it is the highest. So, accordingly people in our mythological stories had special powers, which now we do not have !
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Aschig
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| | Monday, February 21, 2005 - 7:03 pm: |
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Assumptions, assumptions! Yogi claims up there that there still are sadhus who know the geography of France and you claim we have lost these powers.
Anyway, my main intention was to get stories/anecdotes. Since you claim to know of people from satyuga with such powers, could you tell at least one such story with some meaningful detail?
It is really sad that rich as our mythology is, no one has come up with a single story.
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Manjiri_g
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| | Monday, February 21, 2005 - 7:34 pm: |
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Yes, even today some Saints have these powers. But, the point is in Sat Yuga, such poers were very common. There are many incidences in Mythology, there are many stories of people being present at 2 places at the same time. Gajanan Maharajanchya pothi madhe pan ashi ek story ahe.
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P_para2
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| | Wednesday, March 16, 2005 - 3:16 pm: |
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Time travel is possible by means of \\'yogic kriya"/// If aschiq, wants to do it, i will help u. Only u have 2 fallow the rules, regulations & techniques. It will take time to go 2 that level . If u r ready 2 do it. let`s start. I am on the same path, let`s join me.
Why u all peoples discussing on same point, as the all literature is avialable in our Indian Ancient Literature. There , the RISHIS given perfect answer for the same Q & all others Q , with scientific reasons. Q as like who i m? from where i came from? for wat purpose i m leaving/spending life? wat`s my life`s goal? wat is this world/universe? from where it is came from? wat`s relation bet.n myself & universe? etc. etc.
These r common Q`s as u have posted one. If anyone wants here the book list on anyone topic for Ancient India/ Vedic Culture / Vedic science. plz fell free 2 contact me. As it is not possible to list books name here.
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